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Location: Episode 9: What He Beheld

Discussion: Why Did Cromartie Leave Ellison alive?

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jasonosborne79
jasonosborne79
Why Did Cromartie Leave Ellison alive?
Mar 7 2008, 4:13 PM EST
It occurred to me that maybe Cromartie is learning too. He and Cameron are pretty similar in capabilities--maybe even the same model albeit with different programming.

Suppose that he has the ability to learn and adapt? Skynet may have given some of its assets greater leeway than previous Terminators because through various changes to the timeline, or creation of new timelines, it realized that the environment they were sent to had too many variables for Skynet to consider.

The look on Cromartie's face could have been one of confusion or curiosity. Everyone that was killed were attacking Cromartie, so he took them out, not in an act of retaliation, but to safeguard his primary objective.

When he was faced with Ellison, after he had reloaded and Cromartie had his weapon leveled at his chest, instead of opening fire, James lowered his own weapon, closed his eyes, and slightly bowed his head. I'm willing to bet that this was the first human being that Cromartie encountered that ever behaved that way and for a brief moment, he may have wondered why. Shouldn't he continue his attack too?

Since he posed no threat, Cromartie simply tossed his guns aside and walked away. He could've killed or tortured Charley and his wife for information when he visited him at their home (he would've known he was lying), but instead gave them his card and left.
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wildbird5150
wildbird5150
RE: Why Did Cromartie Leave Ellison alive?
Mar 7 2008, 4:25 PM EST
I think that Ellison was no threat to Cromartie and he spared Ellison's life. 1  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    
Omegarium
Omegarium
RE: Why Did Cromartie Leave Ellison alive?
Mar 7 2008, 4:28 PM EST
Why would Cromartie have not let Ellison alive ? 0  out of 2 found this valuable. Do you?    
mitx
mitx
RE: Why Did Cromartie Leave Ellison alive?
Mar 7 2008, 4:54 PM EST
Cromartie has a history of leaving people alive. He left the swat team alive in the pilot when they lowered their weapons. His screen said "no threat" or something. 2  out of 3 found this valuable. Do you?    
T-1000000
T-1000000
RE: Why Did Cromartie Leave Ellison alive?
Mar 7 2008, 5:12 PM EST
Not only was Ellison not a threat in that scene but Cromartie knows he still has to find John Connor & who better to lead him to him. Cromartie knows Ellison has the files on Sarah. I do think Cromartie would have killed Ellison had he ran into him at FBI headquarters after Cromartie found out Ellison had the files. Notice they show Ellison & Cromartie just miss each other at the elevator. Ellison will never know how close he came to being taken out by Cromartie not once, but twice. Three times if you count when they met at Laslo's right after Cromartie killed him. 2  out of 2 found this valuable. Do you?    
Coven
Coven
RE: Why Did Cromartie Leave Ellison alive?
Mar 7 2008, 6:45 PM EST
"Not only was Ellison not a threat in that scene but Cromartie knows he still has to find John Connor & who better to lead him to him. Cromartie knows Ellison has the files on Sarah. I do think Cromartie would have killed Ellison had he ran into him at FBI headquarters after Cromartie found out Ellison had the files. Notice they show Ellison & Cromartie just miss each other at the elevator. Ellison will never know how close he came to being taken out by Cromartie not once, but twice. Three times if you count when they met at Laslo's right after Cromartie killed him."
I agree. I believe he is keeping Ellison alive in hopes he'll lead Cromartie to the Connors.
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T-1976
T-1976
RE: Why Did Cromartie Leave Ellison alive?
Mar 7 2008, 7:30 PM EST
"I agree. I believe he is keeping Ellison alive in hopes he'll lead Cromartie to the Connors."
I agree as well. Ellison is the key to lead him to John.

And I think the "posed no threat" is a good explanation too
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PiotrT
PiotrT
RE: Why Did Cromartie Leave Ellison alive?
Mar 8 2008, 4:23 AM EST
Interesting question, I think we can rule out that the cyborg is developing in the same way as Cameron. He/it has NOT been exposed to humans beings day to day as Cameron has with the opportunity to observe them in their everyday interactions,motivations and emotions. She has the brain so like the tin man she is looking for a heart. I hope she will return in S2 as she is by far the most interesting character, as if human and cyborgs are to co-exist then they must come to understand and tolerate each other, and it is her journey that gives us hope. John appears to see more in her than the other characters, so perhaps he is coming to the realisation that they must learn to live together as outright destruction of one side by the other is both unlikely and not to be desired.

Anyway why did he leave Ellison alive? In my view three possibilities:
1. As you say he was no threat, so maybe!
2. Cromartie knows he has pursued the Sarah Connor case tenaciously over the years, and therefore he may be of use in the future in some way to provide information.
3. Future knowledge. Maybe at some point Ellison is pivotal in some way in the course of events (probably in favour of Skynet) and must therefore be left alive to fulfill that role. Cromartie knows this and acts accordingly.
Hope we find out in the next series, although in the best tradition of the X-Files it is always good to have some things unexplained to give the fans something to speculate about!
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akmac82
akmac82
RE: Why Did Cromartie Leave Ellison alive?
Mar 8 2008, 5:02 AM EST
ummm..it could simply be that he (Cromartie) was NOT sent out in Read-only mode, but in thinking mode...whatever the other mode is called. 1  out of 2 found this valuable. Do you?    
Shrapnel20

Shrapnel20
RE: Why Did Cromartie Leave Ellison alive?
Mar 11 2008, 12:09 AM EDT
"Interesting question, I think we can rule out that the cyborg is developing in the same way as Cameron. He/it has NOT been exposed to humans beings day to day as Cameron has with the opportunity to observe them in their everyday interactions,motivations and emotions. She has the brain so like the tin man she is looking for a heart. I hope she will return in S2 as she is by far the most interesting character, as if human and cyborgs are to co-exist then they must come to understand and tolerate each other, and it is her journey that gives us hope. John appears to see more in her than the other characters, so perhaps he is coming to the realisation that they must learn to live together as outright destruction of one side by the other is both unlikely and not to be desired.

Anyway why did he leave Ellison alive? In my view three possibilities:
1. As you say he was no threat, so maybe!
2. Cromartie knows he has pursued the Sarah Connor case tenaciously over the years, and therefore he may be of use in the future in some way to provide information.
3. Future knowledge. Maybe at some point Ellison is pivotal in some way in the course of events (probably in favour of Skynet) and must therefore be left alive to fulfill that role. Cromartie knows this and acts accordingly.
Hope we find out in the next series, although in the best tradition of the X-Files it is always good to have some things unexplained to give the fans something to speculate about!"
I agree with this response the most, but in answering this question, I think it is also important to ask, "Why did Terminator X kill victim Y?" If a Terminator does not kill a threat, why did Vic for instance, kill his "wife"? Why did Cromartie kill the victims who were no threat to him? Most of these victims were important to Skynet true and you could argue that killing them eliminates people who might know about Skynet weaknesses, but as far as we know, these people never presented a threat in the "typical" timeline. They probably died on Judgement Day. Several times the "good" Terminators have told John or Sarah that killing someone would be more strategically beneficial. Terminators run on computer logic. This tells us that Terminators only kill if it is somehow logically beneficial. So the victims' deaths benefitted Skynet and Ellison's survival benefits Skynet as well. This we know for sure. What we need to know is how it benefits them. Though all theories presented are good so far, I think the no threat theory is least likely. Sure that's part of it, but I think there is more, like a logical & statement (If human = no threat && human alive > human dead then don't terminate else terminate).
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Shrapnel20

Shrapnel20
RE: Why Did Cromartie Leave Ellison alive?
Mar 11 2008, 12:24 AM EDT
Having stated the above, here is my own theory on Ellison's survial:

Part of Cromartie's Infiltrate function is to not draw attention to himself. He has a database of what the current year is like and that mass death will bring more humans after him. His AI presents himself with a solution of how to kill and remain undetected: Frame Ellison. Ellison is going to have a lot of explaining to do. Which is more believable to a 20th century detective? Several well armed police with the element of surprise ambused a subject who turned the tables on them, or they were betrayed by one of their own, an obsessed, stressed out agent who just happened to be the only survivor? What's he going to say that is believable and doesn't make him sound crazy? How could this suspect possibly have killed all those agents and why would he possibly leave Ellison alive? While Ellison is in hot water, Cromartie is free to still pursue John Connor without having having to fight through hordes of police along the way (he's not worried about being stopped, just slowed down).
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jasonosborne79
jasonosborne79
RE: Why Did Cromartie Leave Ellison alive?
Mar 11 2008, 10:13 AM EDT
"Having stated the above, here is my own theory on Ellison's survial:

Part of Cromartie's Infiltrate function is to not draw attention to himself. He has a database of what the current year is like and that mass death will bring more humans after him. His AI presents himself with a solution of how to kill and remain undetected: Frame Ellison. Ellison is going to have a lot of explaining to do. Which is more believable to a 20th century detective? Several well armed police with the element of surprise ambused a subject who turned the tables on them, or they were betrayed by one of their own, an obsessed, stressed out agent who just happened to be the only survivor? What's he going to say that is believable and doesn't make him sound crazy? How could this suspect possibly have killed all those agents and why would he possibly leave Ellison alive? While Ellison is in hot water, Cromartie is free to still pursue John Connor without having having to fight through hordes of police along the way (he's not worried about being stopped, just slowed down)."
Possible, but doubtful. Yes, James would have a lot of explaining to do, but he can prove that Cromartie, a.k.a Kester, was infiltrating the FBI and had already killed several people; he has proof. Also, at the scene, there's no way that James could've killed all those agents himself, or allowed them to be killed. There's no motive either.

Also, there's plenty of forensic evidence left behind to show where the shooting began, what happened to each victim and how. James' superiors will ask a lot of tough questions, maybe even suspend him pending the outcome of an internal investigation, but I doubt any criminal charges will be brought against him.

Plus, there's Charley Dixon, who responded to the scene and was a witness (he saw Cromartie leave, saw the aftermath). He's a paramedic and something of a local hero.

James could simply say that they have discovered a very nasty assassin who has infiltrated their computer network and impersonated an FBI agent.
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T-14
T-14
RE: Why Did Cromartie Leave Ellison alive?
Mar 11 2008, 1:35 PM EDT
I think that Cromartie felt no need in killing things that pose no threat to him. Remember, he is not necessarily evil, he is unrelentless in his mission, and if someone tries to stop his mission, they die, if they dn't Cromartie barely pays attention to them. Do you find this valuable?    
T-14
T-14
RE: Why Did Cromartie Leave Ellison alive?
Mar 11 2008, 1:42 PM EDT
"I agree with this response the most, but in answering this question, I think it is also important to ask, "Why did Terminator X kill victim Y?" If a Terminator does not kill a threat, why did Vic for instance, kill his "wife"? Why did Cromartie kill the victims who were no threat to him? Most of these victims were important to Skynet true and you could argue that killing them eliminates people who might know about Skynet weaknesses, but as far as we know, these people never presented a threat in the "typical" timeline. They probably died on Judgement Day. Several times the "good" Terminators have told John or Sarah that killing someone would be more strategically beneficial. Terminators run on computer logic. This tells us that Terminators only kill if it is somehow logically beneficial. So the victims' deaths benefitted Skynet and Ellison's survival benefits Skynet as well. This we know for sure. What we need to know is how it benefits them. Though all theories presented are good so far, I think the no threat theory is least likely. Sure that's part of it, but I think there is more, like a logical & statement (If human = no threat && human alive > human dead then don't terminate else terminate). "
Actually, all those he has killed, he killed for a reason. One his little helpers in episode 4 (Heavy Metal) find out that they're building robots to destroy the world, they will attempt to kill Cromartie. So, why not kill them before they find out? Vic killed his wife, because he decided he needed to be elsewhere, if he just left, his wife would call the police, and there would be trouble. So in the end, note, those he has not killed ; Ellison, Those S.W.A.T. team guys and various other people, is because they posed no threat, or even reason for him to kill them.
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Shrapnel20

Shrapnel20
RE: Why Did Cromartie Leave Ellison alive?
Mar 11 2008, 11:58 PM EDT
"Possible, but doubtful. Yes, James would have a lot of explaining to do, but he can prove that Cromartie, a.k.a Kester, was infiltrating the FBI and had already killed several people; he has proof. Also, at the scene, there's no way that James could've killed all those agents himself, or allowed them to be killed. There's no motive either.

Also, there's plenty of forensic evidence left behind to show where the shooting began, what happened to each victim and how. James' superiors will ask a lot of tough questions, maybe even suspend him pending the outcome of an internal investigation, but I doubt any criminal charges will be brought against him.

Plus, there's Charley Dixon, who responded to the scene and was a witness (he saw Cromartie leave, saw the aftermath). He's a paramedic and something of a local hero.

James could simply say that they have discovered a very nasty assassin who has infiltrated their computer network and impersonated an FBI agent."
I don't refute what you say, but in fact all that evidence would just serve to dame Ellison further. The reality of what actually happened and can be proven is so unbelievable that those investigating the incident will refuse to believe it themselves. The forensic evidence will show exactly that some assailant other then Ellison killed several highly trained FBI agents while taking several, likely, fatal hits himself, but walked away leaving Ellison alive. It would be human nature to deny this is what really happened because it's so incredulous. The evidence must have been faked and/or Ellison is in league with this unknown assailant. Even if somehow the FBI could be convinced of the truth, they'll still waste so much time in the investigation that Cromartie will have enough time to finish his mission unmolested.
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Zeno-2
Zeno-2
RE: Why Did Cromartie Leave Ellison alive?
Apr 24 2008, 7:45 AM EDT
"Having stated the above, here is my own theory on Ellison's survial:

Part of Cromartie's Infiltrate function is to not draw attention to himself. He has a database of what the current year is like and that mass death will bring more humans after him. His AI presents himself with a solution of how to kill and remain undetected: Frame Ellison. Ellison is going to have a lot of explaining to do. Which is more believable to a 20th century detective? Several well armed police with the element of surprise ambused a subject who turned the tables on them, or they were betrayed by one of their own, an obsessed, stressed out agent who just happened to be the only survivor? What's he going to say that is believable and doesn't make him sound crazy? How could this suspect possibly have killed all those agents and why would he possibly leave Ellison alive? While Ellison is in hot water, Cromartie is free to still pursue John Connor without having having to fight through hordes of police along the way (he's not worried about being stopped, just slowed down)."

I like this explanation. An FBI Agent babbling about robots from the future, the apocalypse and the book of revelation will most probably be sent to bedlam, while the Cromartie can continue his mission.
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TSE175

TSE175
RE: Why Did Cromartie Leave Ellison alive?
Apr 25 2008, 3:54 AM EDT
Yes Good points. Perhaps this is a way that the robots can cause the most distraction and carry out their mission. Cromartie is listed as an killer so I guess his main aim is John Connor and will use this as the main priority to trace him. Leaving the FBI agent alive will allow a possible trace to JC, but who knows? Great show and clever twisting plots. Best wishes TSE175 Do you find this valuable?    
mitx
mitx
RE: Why Did Cromartie Leave Ellison alive?
Apr 25 2008, 4:11 AM EDT
He wasn't allowed to kill off Ellison because of affirmative action. 0  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    
Stevieb83

Stevieb83
RE: Why Did Cromartie Leave Ellison alive?
Apr 25 2008, 2:13 PM EDT
Cromartie possibly knows that eventually Ellison will lesd him to Sarah, John & Derek. Do you find this valuable?    
pb67
pb67
RE: Why Did Cromartie Leave Ellison alive?
Apr 25 2008, 3:54 PM EDT
"I think that Cromartie felt no need in killing things that pose no threat to him. Remember, he is not necessarily evil, he is unrelentless in his mission, and if someone tries to stop his mission, they die, if they dn't Cromartie barely pays attention to them."
I like this idea, and its something that could build.

They've shown Cromartie's HUD in the pilot flash "NO THREAT" when scanning the SWAT team outside the bank.

He visited Charlie (in character) and left him untouched - although that was strategically sound anyway as he left an FBI card so there was a chance Charlie would phone him if Sarah showed up.

He let Ellison alone, probably again because he was "NO THREAT".

So far the only people he has killed are those who pose a threat, directly or indirectly. He didn't appear to kill the coach in the showers, nor the various people he interacted with while visiting schools looking for John (although he did kill the computer records chap at the start of his hunt).

So, things are building to a point where Cromartie is shown to have only killed in pursuit of his mission.

He's not intrinsically bad. Perhaps the "reprogramming" these units get is simply a different set of mission parameters. Arnie in T2 was quite happy to kill people who got in his way, until John ordered him not to.

It's always been something of a tenet, and has been reinforced by this series in several places, that Skynet became self-aware and *then* got scared about Humanity.

So, perhaps Skynet is also not intrinsically evil. Just scared. No different to the behaviour of the majority of humans when threatened.

Cromartie's behaviour, and the hints about Skynet, could be building to an ending where Skynet is still created, but is given the right upbringing (someone mentioned Cameron doing it I believe) and so doesn't start killing humans.

No core malevolence means no threat, no war. Nice upbeat note ...

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